Dr. Mario Sacasa & Amber Pilkington Talk Catholic Dating Mistakes

Dating Well: Discernment, Skills, and Healthy Boundaries with Dr. Mario Sacasa

Amber Pilkington hosts Dr. Mario Sacasa on The Catholic Couch to discuss Catholic dating at the intersection of theology and psychology. Dr. Mario shares his background as a marriage and family therapist, his conversion, and how client needs after COVID led him to develop Dating Well to help people build healthy relationship patterns early, since “as the dating couple, so goes the married couple.” They note broad declines in dating and marriage, citing social fragmentation, polarization, and loss of communal ties. Dating is framed as both discernment of vocation and a learnable skill set, especially amid digital communication norms and fear of rejection; they emphasize a growth mindset and exploratory dating within healthy parameters. The conversation critiques purity culture’s rigidity and transactional expectations, advises parents to teach virtue through practice (including a suggested dating age of 16), and addresses spiritual modesty, nonsexual affection in marriage, and avoiding perfectionism and overly rigid “lists,” particularly on dating apps. Dr. Mario describes his self-paced 19-lesson course covering stages of dating, boundaries, flags, conflict, sensitive topics, and honorable breakups.

00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro
01:26 Dr Mario Background
05:46 Why Dating Feels Harder
07:41 Dating Discernment and Skills
13:47 Rejection Growth Mindset
14:58 Dating as Spiritual Integration
16:35 Learning Through Past Relationships
18:23 Parents and Purity Culture
21:55 Healthy Dating Boundaries at Home
25:25 Purity Culture Switch
25:59 Fire and Desire
28:04 Raising Boys Virtues
29:25 Marriage Beyond Sex
30:56 Nonsexual Touch
31:40 Dating App Perfectionism
34:55 Rank Your Nonnegotiables
38:15 Lists vs Real Chemistry
41:38 Spiritual Modesty Boundaries
46:06 Dating Well Course
48:14 Modern Breakups Etiquette
49:51 Final Thanks and Wrap

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Catholic Couch, the official podcast of the Catholic Counseling Institute. I'm Amber Pilkington, Catholic Therapist, wife, mother, and woman who, yes, has data. We are so thankful today to have Dr. Mario here for our first collab. Yeah, let's go. Yes, our channel's a year old, but we haven't done collabs before. And I think we started with the best. Dr. Mario has a PhD, and he lives in this lane that our channel is on, the intersection of theology and psychology. And he has had his own podcast, Always Hope podcast. He's had on Father Josh Johnson, Jason Everett, Father Timothy Gallagher, Father Spitzer. So I cannot believe that you're here. So welcome to the Catholic Couch, Dr. Mario. Thanks for giving us an hour of your time.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Thanks, Amber, so much. It is a joy to be here with you and your audience. And thanks so much for having me on your show. It's going to be great. Have a great conversation today.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

This is such a wonderful topic. Dr. Mario has two online courses. One's called Dating Well, and one is called Overcoming Stress and Anxiety, but he's really the Catholic dating guru. And following up on our last video, which a lot of you really liked when I looked at the difference between purity culture and theology of the body and dating and marriage, this is just a perfect time for Dr. Mario to come on. So, Dr. Mario, can you tell us a little bit just about yourself and how you came to the world of Catholic counseling and then found your way to dating? Because you're not dating yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

No. No, I've been happily married for 23 years. My wife would be terribly disappointed if I was in the dating scene myself. So no.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Which means you mastered it.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Which means I've mastered something, something at least, right? Yeah. So all it really means is I got lucky because I met my wife at 20 and we were married at 22. And then so how did I get into this world? Well, I had my conversion in college, like many do. And then as I said, I met my wife in college and we got married as soon as we graduated. We did two years of missionary work, at which point I thought, man, I need to, I need to go back. I need to get some therapy background. I need to go get a master's so that I can help people a little bit more than what I'm capable of doing. And so I went and got my degree in marriage and family counseling. This is like the early 2000s. So the theology of the body was just becoming a thing at that time. And so I was learning about the theology of the body, loved everything that was being taught about the church's vision with regards to marriage and sexuality. But I thought that what was lacking was a sort of practical application of that, or that sometimes people can look at this vision and get lost in the vision, or they can get overwhelmed by how big it actually is. And so what I found was that strong science gives the steps to help people actualize that vision within their lives. And so I found a beautiful harmony between what the church teaches and what science teaches regarding best practices, being able to wade through the scientific literature there. And so I've been practicing as a marriage therapist since yeah, 2005, I would say is when I started seeing clients as an intern in graduate studies. And so then what brought me into this dating world was soon after COVID, I was listening to a number of conversations with my young adult clients. And I had a handful of them that kept kind of saying the same thing, and I kept repeating myself over and over again. And I was like, hmm, there's something here that I need to kind of just put down on paper. And then as I was thinking about those things that I was putting down on paper, I said, a lot of this actually is really good pre-marriage advice, so to speak, like pre-advice. And that how do you really establish from the get-go a healthy relationship built on strong patterns of communication, of love, of respect, of intimacy? You can establish those things at the ground level and then build on that into a relationship. Because I'm sure you've seen, Amber, in your practice also, that so often when couples come to us in marriage counseling, they there are patterns of interactions and habits that they have formed within their relationship that go back years. And so if we can start from the beginning and help them establish healthier patterns from the get-go, then that's going to help their marriages down the line. And so there's a saying in seminary formation and priestly formation that goes, as the seminarian, so goes the priest. And what that means is that you can't just expect that the grace of the ordination to go ahead and change the character of this person, okay? That who he is in the seminary is who he's going to be, at least as he's going to start off with in the priesthood. And I think the same lesson applies when it comes to dating and marriage. That's so often young couples think that, oh, if we just get married, the grace of the sacrament's going to change everything. And that put brakes on that, pump brakes on that. As the dating couple, so goes the married couple. And so thinking of all those things, having these experiences in the clinical setting is what like brought me to where I'm at now, which is helping navigate this crazy dating world that we live in. One that I'm an outsider looking in for sure, but looking at all the research, working with couples, coaching individuals, traveling the country, giving lectures on college campuses on this. I'm just trying to help people as best as possible to establish those right patterns that we've been speaking about. And so that's kind of what brought me to where I'm at today.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

I'm so glad that you have done the work that you've done with dating. Now, dating, and and yes, I've seen the same things from my clients. In fact, a client was how I found out about you. They were like, I saw this wonderful guy, Dr. Mario, and uh you gotta you gotta connect with him, and he does all the attachment stuff too. And so I think we're hearing a lot of the same stuff. And one of the things that I have seen is sadly, a lot of young Catholic women, I work more with women, although I do see some men, that really want to be married and are really struggling to find someone. And I don't know if it's just anecdotal, or are you seeing this as well? And what do you think might be causing that?

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Yeah, no, it's not anecdotal. I mean, the all the studies are echoing exactly what people are experiencing, which is marriage rates are declining, age of first of marriage, first marriages are happening later, dating rates as a whole are down across the board. And uh, and so definitively, and there's a lot of reasons for this. Some of it is we can look at just the fragmentation of society. People move more than they ever have before, people don't stay in areas as much as they used to. Um it the polarization online, people fall into echo chambers. And so we're seeing studies that show that folks who are Republican are less inclined to date people who are Democrat, and vice versa. Like there's those polarizations impact dating. So when you think of that, it's like, okay, so we're more fragmented as a society, we're more polarized as a society, we have less social ties that kind of pull us together, religion, spirituality, those things that have always been the fabric that have kind of given us some sense of commonality and a communal nature to our society. Those things are gone. And so what could go wrong, right? I mean, what could go wrong? Like it's just, let's just let people date now, okay? Well, what does that mean? And so it means exactly what you're experiencing with your clients is that it's harder to find people that you connect with, it's harder to find people, period. Everything feels like it's an uphill battle, and it's just not as easy as it used to be. And so, yeah, it's there. And we're trying what we can to help folks connect in better ways and more fulfilling ways as well.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

And speaking to that, you talk about dating as discernment as well as a skill. And I was starting to think maybe this is a little bit of a rabbit trail, but dating hasn't always been part of how we met our spouses. And so there was a history of arranged marriages going way back, and then you know, coming towards our century or a couple centuries ago, there's this idea of choosing your spouse. Um, so I think that may be a whole thing, but I'm also wondering dating as a skill. Can you talk about that, about how that's developed and how that's different from dating as performance?

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Oh, geez, great question. So I'd like to actually hear what you have what your thoughts are though about what were you saying with regards to like the changes in in marriage. Yeah, yeah, let's let's get on your little something. I see something's there.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

As humans have or as we have progressed and the church continues, the the message doesn't change, but there's continued revelation. Just like theology of the body is not altogether different, but it's a different, it's a revelation. My thought is we get closer and closer and closer to the revelation of Christ's love for the church, that it is a chosen love. So if you think of the four things that John Paul II talks about the full, faithful, fruitful, free, that we see along history those things kind of clicking into place as relationships progress. But that's just my at first blush.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Oh, that's interesting. And so you're saying that because of that, moving away from arranged marriages into where it's a choice is a better symbol for marriage. Yes, in that regard. It incorporates person peop people's freedom. Yeah, I would get behind that. I mean, yeah, I mean, I have four boys. I don't know many if you have girls the same age, we can do this arranged marriage thing right now on the podcast, like just to make it easy for a kid. But uh, but no, I would agree with that because it where arranged marriages happen now is I think like in India and certain cultures in East Asia, where there still seems to be that. And when it's done in that context, it's more communal in nature. So marriage isn't viewed as an individual enterprise as much as it's part of the community. And coincidentally, like, or I don't know, coincidentally ironically, whatever, divorce rates in arranged marriages today is like 10%, very, very, very low, right? So whatever the cultural context is, I get it. But in American, I I would agree with what you're saying, that there's a sense that we have to choose the other person. And that brings a whole host of questions with regards to do we talk about a soulmate? Do we talk about what does God have planned for us in our life? And so it this is why I view marriage and dating, excuse me, as an act of discernment. Um, because as a young person is growing up and trying to decide, okay, God, what is my vocation? At some point, that question has to stop being an abstract notion. And at some point it becomes something concrete, where it's like, well, am I, do I feel like I'm called to celibacy or feel like I'm called to marriage? Okay, well, if I feel called to marriage, okay, how do we actualize that? Well, I have to start dating, I have to start meeting people, I have to start being able to learn what it is that I'm looking for, know how to be respectful, those things. But then in the process of my day-to-day life and the circumstances that God uses, He's going to reveal his plan and his will for my life. And so then as you're dating casually, and then at some point, maybe one of those moves into a seriously more serious, committed relationship. Um, at that point, the question no longer is, am I discerning marriage in the abstract notion? It's am I discerning marriage with this person particularly? So the way I view discernment is God uses the circumstances of our lives. It's very incarnational. Like God, God came in a particular time, Jesus came in a particular moment to a particular people, to a particular circumstance to speak a particular word. And he does that also in the context of our lives by showing that every moment in history, right, can be touched by his grace. So that's the discernment element of it. The skill building element is kind of what I've been hinting at, which is what I think we're seeing with young people today is that they're lacking just relational skills, they're lacking the capacity to be able to speak, to connect, because so much of the intermediary has been the digital devices, the texting, the and so the rules are different. How we communicate is different. If if you're dating somebody and it's serious, but then you've at some point in the relationship, you this is what somebody just shared this with me last week. So this is why this example is coming up. You've shared your location with this, but then at some point said individuals stopped wanting to share their location with you. What does that mean? Right. That's that's that's a type of communication that you and I didn't deal with, or I mean, I'm dating myself. I did I didn't deal with like when I was dating, you know, my wife 25 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Like all these new rules. Yeah, how many days before you're like back? And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Yeah, what do you text? What's the difference between text? How do you start a conversation on a dating app and then moving that towards getting the person asking for the person's number to actually text them? And then the their stages, all of this are modes of communication that there's no precedent for. And it's because there's so many different modes of communication. Do you reach out on Instagram? Do you direct message? Because all of this is there, people feel very overwhelmed by it. And then we have to get back to meeting in person, having conversations in person, trusting people again in person, knowing how to banter, knowing how to carry a discussion, know how to ask good questions, know how to make eye contact, know how to have good body language, all of this stuff that's really, really important to put your best face forward when it comes to those early dates. Those are just skills. And so I work a lot with men. And men often feel overwhelmed, they often feel confused, they often feel insecure, they often feel afraid of being able to ask girls out because of rejection. And what I tell guys across the board is that listen, this is just skills. Okay. It lets not get in our head about this. If we can develop the right skills, then you're going to develop the right competencies. If you can develop the right competencies, then you're going to develop the right confidence. Like that's the way that this works.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

I love that. One of the things I talk to a lot of women about, and I don't think girls carry the or young ladies carry the same sort of fear about the rejection in the same way as men, but it's still kind of there. And we talk about how if you're called to marriage and this is a no, we could think of that as a crushing thing, and we could put that on our list of reasons why I'll never be loved, right? All of those lies that the devil gives us. Or we could say, hey, we're one no closer to our yes. And so thinking about how we're how we're gonna do that.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Um yeah, that's shifting the mindset, right? I mean, that's having the right, what does Carol DeWeck call it? It's it's a growth mindset as opposed to a fixed mindset, you know. And so, so if we have a fixed mindset when it comes to dating, then all we're doing is reinforcing all those negative scripts that we live by. And if we can just kind of put that aside a little bit and and enter into this, and if it is discernment, um, then then that means there's exploration. I mean that that's that's the way to look at this in terms of not so much casual dating, but exploratory dating. It's like we're I'm trying to explore. And and why doesn't God make it easier? I I used to say I don't know, but actually I do know now. What I've come to realize as I've gotten older is that this is all what's to some degree what's waiting for us on the other side. We we speak about having the beatific vision, everything's gonna make sense. Yes, everything's gonna make sense, but what it also means is that we're gonna have all of eternity to play in the grand adventure that is God's love. And for all of eternity, we're gonna be, we're gonna fully understand God, but but not fully understand him at the same time. We're not gonna be satisfied. The satisfaction of our desires happens, but there's also not a period at the end of the sentence. I mean, that's the tension of heaven. And so this side of heaven, what to play is to explore, is to adventure. And with the right parameters, we can view discernment in that context. And I think that's the way the spiritual life tends to work is God, God reveals himself and then he pulls back. And whenever he pulls back, he pulls back because he's inviting us to take another step forward. And then he pulls back again and take another step forward. And so there's that seeking that he's always inviting us to. And so we see all of that playing out in our spiritual lives, and people can talk about the three stages and all that other stuff for sure. But I want people to be able to see their dating life as part of the larger picture that God's doing with them. And it's not like my spiritual life's over here and my romantic life is over here. That's the that's what the theology of the body has given to us. It's like, no, all of this is integrated. And so bring it all before the Lord. What like what happens after first day? What do we feel? What am I interested in? The the crush of asking somebody out and her and she's saying no, God wants to be present in all of that.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

And and I think that can be seen as a continual road, too, right? So people that I dated before my husband, I think in many ways prepared me in different ways because I learned different things about myself. I tell my daughters and my son, it's important to know just as much what you don't want is what you do. And so developing having that all be a part of that journey and walking one another, but as you said, with healthy parameters. A person that I dated before my husband, and we were talking about those physical boundaries. I remember him saying very honorably, I want to, if I'm not the one, I want to be able to look at your husband one day and say, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Oh, God bless him. That's amazing. Good for him.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Well, we were not right together. It was a difficult breakup, and he has a lovely family, and so do I. And so I think if we can take that example and say, in that relationship, I really felt like we were helping each other take a step forward, even though that wasn't what God wanted in terms of ultimate vocation for both of us.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

So beautiful story. Thanks for sharing that, Amber. And I would agree in my circumstances too. I mean, I only had a couple girlfriends prior to marrying my wife. And in each of those, I mean, breakups happen, and even though we're in high schools, still, we learn from it. I mean, it's like we we can we can be too quick to look at high school relationships and like scoff at it or something like that. But it's like, no, no, no, this is like a young person whose mind is developing, heart's developing, something's happening here. And uh, and I know for me, like I always took the time to reflect afterwards and say, okay, what could I have done differently? What what what did I learn from this? And I took those lessons from each of those relationships and applied it directly to my dating relationship with Kristen. And so most certainly, yeah, I think that's the right attitude.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

So to that end, what would you say to parents? Because a lot of the people here on the couch are Catholic parents. They're about our age. Can you believe we're the parents now?

SPEAKER_01 18:33

And so here's yes. Yeah, all the wrinkles, yes, all the battle scars are well deserved. Yes, yes. I'm not 21 and I don't want to be 21 anymore.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

And a lot of us grew up, and the last video I did was looking at the difference between pur purity culture and theology of the body. I'll put a link somewhere here for y'all, but a lot of us grew up with purity culture.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Yeah, I have I kiss dating goodbye, is it's it's it's on the shelf back there. Yeah, uh-huh. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

And so I'm wondering what you say to Catholic parents who rightly want to protect their children's dignity and modesty and chastity and purity, who say, no dating until you're 25. Or 30. Right? Or put like a specific line. How does a parent of high schoolers help our children navigate dating should they be interested? What are some of those conversations to be having?

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Yeah, so I'll say something about uh I kissed dating goodbye first and then and the effects that I've seen with couples in marriage, back to what we were talking about earlier, in terms of the patterns you established early on, how that impacts downstream. A couple I was seeing for counseling commented how they had read that book and how it shaped them there at our age and how it shaped them in their early stages of their relationship, and how that that rigidity around the topics of affection and sexuality impacted their marital intimacy. And it took them a while to exactly, it took them a while to be able to figure that out. Now, of course, I'm sure your listeners know, but just for people to know that that book, Joshua Harris has pulled it, the publisher doesn't sell anymore, he's apologized for it. He obviously he didn't intend it to hurt people the way that it did. He has since lost his faith, he's divorced now. I mean, so want to pray for Joshua Harris and whatever he is, you know, now. But what I tell parents on this topic is like if the purity culture experiment was run in the Protestant churches in the late 90s and early 2000s, it was run many of the Catholic youth groups as well. And many of the Catholic youth groups as well. That's right. It did cross over into that. But the purity culture experiment was run and it failed. Okay. That's that's the piece that we have to know. It failed, it didn't work, it was overly rigid. And so we want to make sure that when we talk about questions related to chastity, related to sexuality, related to dating, that we're still holding the line in terms of what the church teaches. Of course, I'm not bending that in any way, but but the difference, I think, in the in a way that we can communicate to our kids is that we want to be able to respect the freedoms, as you said. And we also want to be able to give kids the opportunities to exercise the virtues that we're trying to instill in them. So we can protect them, we can keep them home, we can say all the things, we can, we can have all the filters as we should. We can survey whatever they watch. But if we're never giving kids the opportunities to actually exercise those lessons, then they're never going to develop the virtues because the virtues aren't an intellectual exercise. The virtues are habituated kind of dispositions that we have towards what's good. And we have to be given opportunities to exercise them, which means that they're going to see pretty girls again from my context as a dad of all boys. How are they going to respond to that? All right. So, what we do in our house is we don't allow our kids to date till they're 16. All right. And the reason that we Say 16. And I get pushback on both sides of this. Some people who say that's too late, and some people who say that's too early. Well, why 16? Well, they're old enough to drive, and usually 16 means they're going to be a junior at some point they're a junior in high school. And so we've got a couple years of high school under their belt, and they're already starting to look towards the future now with college and trying to be able to establish kind of some thoughts about what the future is. If they're capable of thinking about the future, capable of trying to make some intelligent decisions, capable of being able to reflect on their heart, then they're capable of being able to engage in a romantic relationship. Why not earlier? Because I don't think that they're capable of those things. The other reason, and again, this is particular to our circumstances, we homeschool up to high school. And since it's a house full of boys, my boys don't have as much opportunities to make friends with girls until they get to college. Excuse me, until they get to high school. And I want to make sure that they know how to be able to filter through affection, attraction, just making good friends, being able to display that they can have good, healthy female relationships. Show me that. And then we can talk about what it means to turn some of those relationships into something romantic. So I say 16 because I would like at least a couple years for them to start dating a little bit while they're under the roof. So we can talk about it. I can help them navigate those feelings. And I tell my boys, and again, I know this isn't everybody, but I do tell them I say, listen, guys, you don't have to share anything with me, but I but I just want to remind you, I I do have a PhD in this stuff. I do travel the country on this. So I may not be able to. No, my kids love it. They're great. You know, because I can't, a handyman, I can't tear down a wall, or I can't go shoot something and tell them how to skin it. Like I can't go fishing.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Like those are I gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Those are conversations I can't do. But I and I tell them, I said, but I can tell you how to how to have a healthy relationship. That I can tell you. And so if you want me to be part of it, then then then happy too. And so they do. We and we have great conversations about it. And so that's the piece that I want to encourage the parents is to say, have these discussions. And I think it's important to at least have a couple years where they're under your roof so that you can help them navigate that stuff. So there was one, I give what one lecture to parents, and the mom was saying, and then after the fact, I had a conversation and she was like, you know, so help me understand the 16 thing because I'm a little nervous. I thought I was always 18, but why a couple of years earlier? And as she was talking, she also then said, Well, I have another daughter who's older, who's in college, but she's not dating. And why isn't she dating? And it's like, well, you can't have a message that says no, no, no, no, no, and then all of a sudden just flip the switch and expect it to be yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Again, skills that we can teach our kids in the right methods with the right parameters, with the right structures to help them develop the right relationships moving forward. So I like the idea of a couple of years where they're under my roof, I can kind of see, could still review the text messaging, still have conversations about things, while I still have some supervision over them before I launch them into the world when they're on their own.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

I love that. And as Dr. Myra, the grace for parenting flows through the sacrament of marriage. And so I would say to parents out there, these are what work for Dr. Myra's family or what works for my family, but ultimately we trust what works for your family. So be praying with your spouse and with God. You are as unique as a family as each individual person. So I really, really love that. Um and to that end, the the about the flipping the switch. When I did a bunch of research on purity culture and how that translates into intimacy in marriage, that was part of what created some of those underlying problems, is that when you've been told no, no, no, no, no, and suddenly it's a yes, it's really hard to kind of shift that. One of the examples that I gave in the video on purity culture and exploring or developing our virtues, this is the analogy I gave. I want to know what you think about it. If you know, if we think about the sexual urge like fire, it can do enormous good and enormous damage. But if we teach our children to fear fire, and then suddenly one day they're off on their own and now they have to build a fire, it could be very dangerous. But if we teach our kids that fire they should be cautious around fire, and we teach them how to light a match, how to make sure that the campfire is put out well, how to roast marshmallows, but not get too close, as an example of learning skills around the intensity of that so that they know what to do.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Yeah, I think that's right on. Um, because if not, you'll get burned, right? I mean, that's it in in either context. And when you get out into the world, obviously I mean, it's just it's just all around. And you have to be able to navigate it. I mean, I work out regularly, I go to the gym, and I'm grateful my eyes don't work as well as they used to. Well, because bless women, but just modesty is not a virtue that we extol anymore. No, and uh, and so so so even as a man, I'm married, I'm still a man. Obviously, I'm still gonna notice attractive women. That's that's part of it. And how do you how do I navigate that and recognize, okay, that's there, but it's not something to grasp over. And so similar when it comes to teaching that to my boys is okay, she's attractive. Or even if you're in a relationship and maybe struggle a little bit with some of those things. I was like, okay, like you're you're designed to be attracted to attractive things. That's something I say often. It's not a flow. That's it's exactly, it's not a bug, it's a feature. It's okay. There's nothing wrong with you for it. And especially even when it comes in the context of a committed relationship, you're sharing your heart with this person, you're sharing your life with this person. Yeah, it's gonna be a little bit harder sometimes. And I'm more okay with the fact that at least you're trying to establish boundaries with somebody that you're committed to and wanting to navigate a committed relationship with rather than just random hookups and one night stand type of things. Again, I want to be clear. My boys know where the line is, and we're very clear about waiting for marriage. And I want to, and I don't want to, I don't want to give any impression that's that I'm not clear about that and that we're establishing those lines with our kids. But we also want them to know, as you kind of articulated, that there's an urge that's there. And again, I can only speak to boys because that's all I'm raising. And I know that those testosterone levels are increasing. There's a 400% increase of T levels from the time that they're 11 to the time that they're 15, and it keeps going up until 25, is when I think peak testosterone is for boys, for men. And so it's it's growing, it's growing, right? So we have to be able to use that. That's not this, there's nothing, again, that's not a that's not a bug. That's a feature. That's part of how God made us as men. Right. And so, how do we channel that energy? How do we use it appropriately? Where do we direct it? What are we stoking by what I'm looking at online? How do I navigate the landscape of things? All of that is part of our duty. And again, as I said, this is all part of helping them to develop the virtues that we're trying to instill in them: chastity, temperance, fortitude, wisdom. These are all virtues that we're trying to imbibe in our own lives and that we're trying to instill in theirs. And I think these are great opportunities to be able to do it without shaming them, without condemning them, but just trying to work with them to help them to continue to be the best versions that they can be of themselves.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

And to that end, as you said, so goes the couple, so goes the marriage. You've been married for 20 years, I've been married for 17. We both know that in marriage, it's not as if you suddenly don't have to be temperate with those desires. There's plenty of times in marriage where it's a no-go for any number of loving reasons. And if couples don't know how to say I love you in many, many ways, the relationship can start feeling insecure around those times. And so it's a beautiful gift. But what I like to say is it gives you a much broader language of how to say I love you with your body, which I think can start as little as two and three years old, obviously not sexually. But what do how do we love with our bodies? Can we help pick up toys, even if you didn't take them out? That's a way of loving with your body. And so I think that's kind of how we start start teaching these. So it's not a talk, it's this continual understanding of what the body is for.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I who thinks that marriage is just gonna be like a sex free-for-all is incredibly disappointed on the honeymoon. It's like, no, you actually have to pack clothes, you're gonna do something other than be in the bedroom the whole time. Like, that's not how this works, people. Right. And and you're right in that there's so many different ways of being able to communicate what we do with our body, how we use it for good, in communicating that and teaching that to our children across the board. And that's an important lesson for couples. So even if folks who are listening that are parents, and now maybe they're reflecting a little bit on their own marriage or relationship right now. One of the things I tell couples when I'm working when I'm doing my marriage seminars is that every couple should have a healthy degree of non-sexual physical contact. It is the only time that you kiss an invitation for sex, or can you hold a hand without it leading to the bedroom? Can you snuggle on the couch watching a program together without it leading to the bedroom? A hand on the shoulder, any of it. It's it's it's important to be able to have just a healthy display of non-sexual physical contact so that there isn't pressure every time that a kiss is offered or that there isn't a reading of it. It's like, well, what does he mean by this? You know, type of yeah. So speaks to what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

I was wondering if we could segue a bit to this idea of perfectionism in dating. One of the things I reflected on is in purity culture, which was sort of incorporated into my youth group, we had this sort of idea of write down a list of everything that you want in your future spouse. And I think having standards is a good thing. We talk about there's certain things that if you're too far apart on important beliefs or foundational beliefs or what marriage is even about or for, that can be a problem. But one of the implicit, I think, promises of purity culture is stay pure and God will give you someone that has your whole list and is equally as quote pure, which feels a little transactional. Yeah, the prosperity gospel of marriage is what I called it. But um I wonder what you think about this and how that maybe relates to how we, or not we, but people who are dating set their filters on a dating app, especially if it's a Catholic dating app.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Sure, sure. That's a great question. So I want to say something actually to that transactional element that you just brought up, and then we can shift into the perfectional perfectionism. I I think all of us at some point we get into our 30s, maybe early 40s, and we realize not everything quite happened the way that I expected it to. And for those of us who are practicing our faith and have been committed to our faith since our teenage years or young adult years, we start looking at this thing and we've been like, is this how does this add up? Is this, is this I thought, I thought, not that I thought there was a quid pro crow, but maybe in the back of my mind, I thought that there was a little bit of like, I'm gonna do what you want to do. This I'm doing the right things here, doing all the things you're asking me to do. And then yeah, I thought I'm supposed to be.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Life's gonna work out.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Life's gonna work out. And uh that doesn't happen often. Like, and so it challenges sort of it challenges our desires, it challenges our notions of success, it challenges our expectations surrounding faith, it challenges all those things. And I think we need to be honest about that because sometimes in Catholic circles, we want to always communicate that it works out, it works out, it works out. Sometimes it doesn't work out, and uh it and if it doesn't work out, God's still at work. That's the whole point of the Job story is that God's just telling Job, hey, keep your eyes on me, buddy. Look at everything I've created. I've created this whole vast universe, and I've created you too, and I have a plan. And so commit to this. So we need to be honest with people that there are best practices, and I think that's the better way of kind of speaking about this, is that there are best practices that we can talk about. But when it comes to relationships and dating, there aren't always guarantees because you could do all the right things because it takes two people. Exactly. That's right. It's it's not just a solo entrepreneurial career objective. That's not just investing your money in the right 401k, right mutual funds type of thing. Like there's there's there's and even those things, obviously, you don't have a control over the economy, whatever. But what I'm saying, like with people, there's a whole nother person there that has to discern this thing with you at the same time. So I think it's important for people to know that. But the question that you're asking is right on. So what I do in dating wells, I do ask people to think through 10 qualities that they're looking for in a relationship. What is it that they want in a potential spouse? But then rather than just leaving it there, I I do the secondary thing, which is okay, now that you have your list, force rank it. All right, force rank it. Now you now.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

That's not to say there aren't some non-negotiables.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

No, that's right. Well, that's what I'm saying. Like you you have to force rank what's one, two, and three, which is gonna, which is gonna force you to think through what are the non-negotiables. And so you establish what those non-negotiables are. And those are questions of compatibility, for sure, values, shared direction of life, shared understanding of what marriage is. Some of those things we want. Now, some of that, though, unfortunately, even in Catholic context, if I'm, can get a little too rigid if we start getting into well, am I only going to date somebody? How many children do you want, right? Or am I only going to date somebody who who goes to the traditional Latin Mass? Or am I not going to date somebody who whoever goes to the traditional Latin Mass? I mean, we're seeing some of that polarization happening even within Catholic ranks that we need to be a little bit, a little bit cautious with, because we don't want to then crystallize those things and view them as non-negotiables when maybe they're not quite non-negotiables. It's not the same thing as pursuing somebody who's desiring chastity, but but may also want to have a career as a woman, right? Those things are okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

So we want to we want to not to interrupt, but when I say how many children do you want, I'm not saying to our audience that children are bad at all. Openness to life, absolutely all the beauties. What I'm saying is there's a certain prescriptiveness to I want one versus I want 14 that doesn't leave room for God to help us decide each month through prayer with openness. So just so that's not misunderstood. So sorry, gut.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Correct. No, I'm with you. I mean, I've seen I've heard people that that's that's the opener for them on a dating app is how many children do you want? And it's like, that's not it, that's not a good opener, buddy. I'll just tell you right now, it's not a good opener. It's a little bit more than that.

SPEAKER_03 36:51

Stick with the dad joke, it goes back to the code. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

It's it's a little too forward, exactly. Stick with something humorous. So, what do we do? How do we find that balance? Well, have your list. We need a list, we need, we need some parameters, but when you actually start meeting people and interacting with people, the real person in front of you and all their quirks and all their idiosyncrasies and the fullness of their personality, the full color of who they are is gonna come into view. And you're gonna have to sift through your preconceived notions and start asking hard questions. Am I gonna discern this person that's in front of me? Or am I gonna and let go of maybe, again, not the non-negotiables, but let go of maybe four, five, and six. Maybe I thought I needed somebody who was six foot, but this guy's five, five, nine. Uh, maybe I needed a woman who looked a certain way. I thought blonde's was it, but but she's a brunette, something of that nature, or a redhead or whatever, letting go of some of those more superficial expectations that we hold on to, or and then allowing the fullness of the person that's in front of us to actually come into higher definition. And and I think that's the key. So I would say for people who are single to maintain their list of non-negotiables for sure, but but making sure that when they are dating with somebody, that when they are dating somebody, that that list is always being filtered. There was a woman that I was working with uh in her 40s, and she had a very strong list. And she met a guy in who by the second date like looked at her list basically, not like literally, but he looked at her list and was like, okay, I can do that. And that shook her. She wasn't ready to meet somebody because the list at some point had become a stiff arm, it had become like a defense mechanism just to just just to keep keep everybody kind of at bay. And uh, and when she started dating this person, I was like, Oh, I actually have to start letting go. I gotta let my guard down a little bit because he actually isn't threatened by the boundaries that I want in this relationship. And so it's constant shifting because we're people and we're interacting with people, and it's it's again the uniqueness and the unrepeat repeatability of our heart and of the person's heart that we're dating that that makes the relationship yeah, something new.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Here's one thing I found about the list too is I had like the non-negotiable list. So there was someone that I dated that checked all the boxes, but it wasn't enough. We were not really compatible personality-wise, we had kind of different conflict styles. We, anyways, some of the other things just weren't didn't seem to be working, but on paper, it seemed to work. So I think that's another side of the list is you really have to make sure, like when you're on a road trip and you get a flat, like are being a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Is this person somebody who's gonna even know what they're doing? Right. Well, that that is and that's one of the dangers just with dating apps, is because we we take our list and we think the easy way to do it is just take our list, put plug it into the algorithm, and let the AI of Catholic match or whatever bring back results. And somehow that that's that's what that's what's going to increase potential mates. And always, right? Not always, because what we may realize, as you said, is that we there can be compatibility on values, on religion, on politics, but not on personality or conflict resolution styles or discernment in how we make decisions. There can be vastly different ways that we handle those things, and so that's stuff that's important. And you have to be able to know that because there can be a high degree of compatibility with regards to values and things of that nature, but there might be a low chemistry, there might be a low attraction, and we need all of that to have a flourishing romantic relationship that leads into marriage.

SPEAKER_02 40:52

One last question. I know that when we when we chatted before just to get to know each other, which I think is interesting, we're kind of of the generation before all of the phone stuff. So I reached out to you by email. Yeah, and very shortly you said, let's jump on a call so we can talk to each other. I'm old school, I'm old school, I'm old school. I absolutely love that. But that is one of no, obviously, it's not a dating thing, but that's one of the things I tell my clients is take it real life as soon as you can, or it's close to real life as quickly as you can. So you can really just start getting a feel of do I like this person, or could I talk to this person for an hour on my podcast? It's it's a more full embodied experience. So but one area I want to go, I know when we talk briefly. I went to a Catholic college. I know that you didn't go to a Catholic college. One of the things that I see is or I saw, I guess it's been a while, but there tended to be very strong filters around physical intimacy. But one of my observations was very quickly, I would see couples praying every night together, going to every single daily mass together, sharing, maybe oversharing, emotional and almost to compensate for the physical intimacy that was not there. And I wonder if you could say something about this idea of spiritual modesty and appropriate discernment.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Yeah, that is a great, great question. Because we want to have, we said, parameters in place when it comes to physical intimacy, especially premarriage, of course, and even as we're moving in a relationship for sure, we want to have all of that. But but I hear what you're saying, which is that so much, so often the narrative is as long as you don't have sex, then everything else is on the table. And what is how does that translate? So do we go too far too quick, not in the sexual context, but in an emotional or spiritual context? And uh, and that is a great question because I do think that we can err in that. And so how do we help people find the right parameters surrounding that as well? Again, temperance, prudence, wisdom, right? Just taking it slow. Let people earn your trust. That's that's it. Let them earn your trust. At some point, if the relationship's going well, you're sitting next to each other at daily mass and you're praying every night for sure. And your prayers become more intimate in the sense that you're interceding with each for each other, you you know each other's story, you're you know how to be able to pray for each other and you're listening and you're bringing that to prayer for sure. That's beautiful. But early on, it takes a little bit for you to trust this person. It takes a little bit for you to be able to know who they are. That doesn't mean that in a first date, you can't start the date with 15 minutes of adoration. I think that's beautiful. Silence together. Praying rosary or something of that nature, perfectly fine. That's appropriate before you go out on your date, having some time together before the Lord before the Blessed Sacrament. But it doesn't mean that there has to be pressure to share everything right out of the gates. So if because of the restrictions with regards to sexual intimacy in the those harsh lines that you spoke about earlier, that that that causes an increase in emotional or spiritual intimacy, I don't know. That's a great question to ask, but I I don't know. I don't know if that's also just a product, even now, of course, lack of communication, lack of clarity about boundaries, not really knowing what parameters are in that regard. So in dating well, that's part of the reason why in dating well, I go through all the hot button topics and knowing when to talk about what, when to bring up things, just to kind of give some people some parameters for them to know when we should be talking about this stuff. Because at some point you do need to talk about it all as you're discerning this relationship towards marriage.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

And I love this idea of discerning in relationship, that you can't just you have to do that with other people. When you're dating, you need to be talking with other people, but also with God, although not just on your own, and how that mirrors how the body of Christ works as well. And that's how we discern so many things. I know that the last time that we talked, I was discerning which courses I wanted to make this year and had a number of courses and felt kind of overwhelmed because I could do Catholic ADHD parenting, dating, anxiety, there was grief. And as we talked, and I realized that you had this beautiful course on dating, it was okay, a part of the body already has that. Focus your energy somewhere else, which is when I started doing the Catholic ADHD parenting course that I'm working on now. And so just this idea of the same concepts transferring across the body of Christ in all kinds of different relationships. So I guess to that end, can you tell us where we can find your course a little bit more about it? If you're still doing the cohorts, uh, you will not be seeing a dating course from me. You'll be seeing an ADHD parenting course. So, Dr. Mario, as the person in the body of Christ who has it, where can we find you?

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Yeah, but you can find me at drmariosacasa.com. That's the easiest way to get a hold of me. You'll learn all about dating well, you'll learn about my speaking engagements, you'll learn about my podcast, Always Hope, and the other things that I'm offering. But certainly just head on over to drmariosacassa.com. That would be the easiest way to learn more about dating well. So, what is dating well? Dating well is the fruit of these conversations that we spoke about at the very beginning of our conversation today. That I tried floating it to some couple Catholic publishers, and then it just didn't feel like it was a right fit. So it turned it into an online course. At the time, I was working with a marriage ministry based out of New Orleans. I've since stopped working with them, but was able to take the course with me, which I was grateful for. And so, what is it? It is 19 video lessons, seven minutes to 17 minutes in length. It's not a cohort model. People can actually go through it at their own pace whenever they want. If they have questions, they can ask me, certainly along the way, and to be able to answer those questions. But it's there to help people go from friendship, understand the stages of relationship, from friendship to dating, knowing how to navigate first dates, how to discern going on even a second date, and then how to discern when to actually take this thing to something serious, going into that committed dating phase. And then knowing when to talk about what, like I said earlier, how to discern if the relationship's going well, what are green flags, what are yellow flags, how to navigate conflict, when to talk about pornography or sexual history, all of that are lessons that we discuss in the course. And then ultimately discerning how to know if you should continue in this relationship, breakup, or or if you're it's time to move towards engagement.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Um breakup in an honorable way. I saw that.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

That's right. Yes, that's right. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_03 48:10

Um, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Because so often, even today, we just don't know how to do that. We have to learn what conversations should be had over text versus which conversation should be had face-to-face, like what should be had in an email.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

I got a letter in the mailbox. That was a good one. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 48:29

That was high school. That was high school. That wasn't me. That's what I was doing.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

That's unbelievable. Unbelievable. Wow. Yeah. No, today you would get the text or ghosting. Nobody likes ghosting. Yeah. The non-text. Nobody, nobody, nobody likes being ghosted. Nobody does. Nobody does. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:45

And I love that you give the framework because so much, as you said, the the with media how it is today, with the digital age, we just don't have frameworks. I even think some of the old frameworks don't work super well. I'm not a huge fan of engagement asking. Do you know what I think this all speaks to, Dr. Mario? Not to interrupt, but how the realities of relationships and how they mirror Christ and the church and the grandness of them and the incompatibility, I guess, not incompatibility, inadequacy of language to really distill down. I guess that's when theology of the body says the body speak, that there are no more words at that point. And so thinking about how we talk about things and how that shapes how we view things, I think is so important.

SPEAKER_03 49:46

So yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 49:48

I appreciate that. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 49:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

Well, thank you for coming on to the Catholic couch. Uh, I know my listeners, I want to introduce all of them to your wonderful work. Um, I wanted to have you on because I think you have a lot of the same values of the Catholic Counseling Institute, which is to make Catholic counseling accessible, authentic, and affordable, which are three things that are so needed. So I cannot thank you enough for taking this maiden voyage of collab, and I hope that we can do it again.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

We will, absolutely. I'll have you on my side also here soon enough. So it would be great.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

All right.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Thanks, Amber. Bless you.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

You too.